Tuesday, 29 September 2020

History News Network Feature Editor Robin Lindley Interviews Nibir K. Ghosh from Agra, India

 


Inspiration from the Banks of the Indus River: 

A Conversation with Nibir K. Ghosh 

By Robin Lindley

It’s been a season of uncertainty and dread in the United States as we contend with a deadly global pandemic, a reckoning with centuries of racism, bitter political divisions, historic environmental disasters, and an unraveling of national institutions, among other challenges.

            For another perspective on history and for words of encouragement, I consulted distinguished Indian author, scholar, editor, and public intellectual Professor Nibir K. Ghosh, a recognized and reliable source for knowledge, wisdom, and inspiration.

             In a lively dialogue by email, we recently discussed Professor Ghosh’s background, his literary study and works, and his thoughts on history and current events. He generously shared his views on the situation in India and its history as that huge nation now struggles with COVID-19 and approaches the number of cases and death that the US grimly has attained. And, with his background in American studies and his academic work in the US, his insights on our history and culture are particularly astute and timely.

Beyond the sweep of history and this fraught moment, Professor Ghosh shares insights on the writers and thinkers he studies. His new collection of essays and other writing, Mirror from the Indus, is a treasure trove of his words and wisdom with timeless relevance. For instance, note the resonance now of his comments on the lives and work of Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And, Professor’s Ghosh’s vision of the interconnectedness of all people in One World without discrimination is particularly instructive and inspiring today as both of our nations face the future with anxiety, ambivalence, and guarded hope.

            Dr. Ghosh, D.Litt., is a UGC [University Grants Commission] Emeritus Professor and former Head, Department of English Studies & Research, Agra College, Agra, India. An eminent scholar and critic of American, British and Post-Colonial literatures, he has published over 180 articles and scholarly essays on various political, socio-cultural and feminist issues in reputed national and international journals.  

            Professor Ghosh is also the founder and chief editor of Re-Markings (www.re-markings.com), an international biannual journal of research in English that has completed nineteen years of publication.       Besides Mirror from the Indus, Professor Ghosh is the author of 14 other acclaimed books including Gandhi and His Soulforce Mission: Charles Johnson: Embracing the World; Multicultural America: Conversations with Contemporary Authors; Calculus of Power: Modern American Political Novel; Shaping Minds: Multicultural Literature; W.H. Auden: Therapeutic Fountain and Perspectives on Legends of American Theatre.

Professor Ghosh was awarded the prestigious Senior Fulbright Fellow at the University of Washington, Seattle during 2003-04. He is currently on the Review Panel of Multi-Ethnic Literature of the United States (MELUS) published by the University of Connecticut, and the African American Review, the Quarterly International Journal on Black American Literature and Culture of the Modern Language Association. During 1992-96, he was the Executive Member of the Board of Directors for the American Studies Research Centre (ASRC) in Hyderabad. Funded by the US government, the Centre was one of the most important institution for American Studies outside of the United States. For two consecutive terms, in 1992 and 1994, Dr. Ghosh was elected to the ASRC Board with an overwhelming majority, an unprecedent achievement in the 40-year history of the organization.

In 2018, The Osmania University Centre for International Programmes, Hyderabad, conferred upon Professor the Lifetime Achievement Award during the Centennial celebrations of Osmania University.

            Professor Ghosh’s blogs www.nibirkghosh.blogspot.com and www.elsaindia.blogspot.com reflect his curiosity and his constant engagement with society, polity, culture, and more.

 

Robin Lindley: It’s a pleasure to hear from you Professor Ghosh about your work and your fascinating new book Mirror from the Indus. You’re a distinguished professor and scholar of literature and history as well as a public intellectual in India. How did your family and early schooling lead you to your career pursuits? Did you have some especially influential teachers and professors?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Thank you for your keen interest in my work, especially in Mirror from the Indus.

When I look back from the vantage point of the present moment at my early childhood, I can easily recall how fond I have always been of reading for pleasure and wisdom. To my father, who served in the Indian Air Force, I truly owe the incessant urge to fall in love with words and ideas that came from reading fairy tales, illustrated comics, classical tales of adventure, stories of revolutionary heroes, pictorial books on Indian History etc. that I would receive from him as gifts. From my mother’s zeal in performing her pujas (worship), I developed an early interest in spiritual stories. As a student my favorite subjects were English, Science and Mathematics. I had my initial schooling in Air Force School in Delhi before the family moved to Agra where I joined the Air Force Central School.

In those days it was customary for bright students to have either Engineering or Medicine as appropriate career options. I fondly remember how my English teachers would always encourage me to participate and represent my school in debate, essay writing and elocution contests. When I stood first in V class, our principal, Mrs. I. Montes, gifted me King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table retold by Phyliss Briggs, a story that impressed me a great deal. However, you will be surprised to know that teaching as a career never figured in my wildest imagination. After my schooling, I did my graduation in Science from Agra College, Agra (founded in 1823 during the British rule). While doing my graduation I joined the Coca Cola company as a Chemist for a while.

It was after my graduation that I was in dilemma whether to go in for M.Sc. in Physics or for M.A. in English literature. After a good deal of deliberate reflection, I finally opted for the latter. Though I had been reading literature for enjoyment for years, the post-graduation course opened a completely new universe because I was able to see in what I read the inevitable connection between literature, history, society and polity of numerous nations and cultures. When my name appeared in the merit list of the University, I began to receive offers of appointment as a Lecturer in English. That is how I entered the teaching profession. I had no regrets of not going for more lucrative jobs because the opportunity to teach literature gave me the happy satisfaction of being able to combine my vocation and avocation.

            Robin Lindley: That sounds like the ideal career choice. What was the subject of your doctoral dissertation and what did you learn from that study?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: The topic of my Ph.D. work was “W. H. Auden: From Communism to Christianity.” My doctoral work was a very exciting experience. It gave me access to a totally new way of looking at events, ideas and personalities beyond the limited confines of what I had been hitherto reading. It introduced to me the importance of interdisciplinary perspectives.

In connection with my work I visited on a regular basis the British Council and American Center libraries in New Delhi and had long periods of stay at the American Studies Research Center at Hyderabad. The study of Auden’s poems made me delve into the Russian Revolution, the Great Depression of 1929, the Weimar Republic in Germany and the emergence of Hitler, the Spanish Civil War culminating in World War II, Existentialism as a philosophy, Psychology from Freud and Jung to Langland, besides various nuances of Christianity, all of which seemed necessary to get the right perspective to studying the writings of Auden.

            Robin Lindley: How do you see the arc of your career from professor and author and now to chief editor of your ambitious and lively periodical on the arts and culture, Re-Markings?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: I see a natural evolution in the ‘arc’ of my career from a teacher to author to the Chief Editor of Re-Markings.

As a teacher I enjoyed interacting with my students and in motivating them to see how the narratives they read were relevant to the lives they lived. My participation in seminars and conferences on a regular basis brought me into close contact with scholars and academicians from different parts of India and abroad.

Right from the time I joined the teaching profession, I got many opportunities for publishing my work in magazines and periodicals of repute. On many occasions it had struck me that I should do something in return for all the valuable space that my writings got in prestigious publications. That is how Re-Markings was born in March 2002 as an International biannual Journal of English Letters. I felt happy to provide a forum to aspiring scholars, academics, poets and critics to express their concerns.

It is difficult to believe how time flies as in March 2021 Re-Markings is slated to complete 20 years of its publication. As for the international outreach and the prestige the journal enjoys, you are in a better position to judge. In starting and continuing the publication from Agra, I must acknowledge the ideational and graphic support and guidance I have constantly received from its Executive editor, Sandeep Arora.

            Robin Lindley: Much of your writing and research concerns British and American literature and history. What sparked this focus?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: My writings and research in British literature began with the study of authors and works prescribed in the master’s program and continued unabated to the study of Auden and beyond. In my M.A. course we had a special paper on Modern American Literature that introduced me to writers like Emerson, Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson, Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller, Eugene O’Neil and others.

My knowledge of American History largely evolved from a course I attended at the American Studies Research Center, Hyderabad in 1978. The one-month long course was titled “Looking for America.” The faculty comprised distinguished professors from American universities in the domain of Literature, History and Culture. One professor, John G. Cawelti from Chicago University and author of The Six Gun Mystique, became a close friend. The discussions I had with him, when he visited Agra, and later through correspondence, proved very valuable in my enhancement of the knowledge of American literature and history.

            Robin Lindley: What’s it been like for you to live and work in the romantic city of Agra, home of the Taj Mahal—a tribute to love? You rhapsodize about the remarkable city in your writing about the literary giant Rabindranath Tagore and in other work.

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Living, studying and teaching in Agra has been an enriching experience. Agra, having been the center of Mughal rule, is steeped in History. The monuments like the Taj Mahal, Red Fort, Fatehpur Sikri etc. make you feel a part of a bygone era. It is from Fatehpur Sikri that Emperor Akbar preached his philosophy of Sulaha Kul or the essential oneness of all religions. I used Rabindranath Tagore’s poem on Shajahan to say that if a poet could give eternal life to a monument made in alabaster, how greater must be his ability to give vibrancy to the nameless toiler and tiller of the land.

            Robin Lindley: In addition to your writing on literature, you have an excellent grasp of history and the context of the works you study. How do you see the role of history in your research and writing?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: I have always believed that no matter how much we talk about art for arts’ sake kind of writings, literature isolated from history and culture cannot exist on its own. An extensive study of the relationship between American history, literature and politics became the focus of my book Calculus of Power: Modern American Political Novel published 1997. In this book I have examined American literature from the perspectives of Economics, War, Women Empowerment, Race, and American Justice on Trial. While engaged in this expansive project, I made an in-depth foray into the history of the foundation and subsequent making of America into a super power.

            Robin Lindley: Your new book, Mirror from the Indus, presents a collection of your essays, tributes and memoirs. How would you like to introduce this remarkable collection to new readers?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: That’s an interesting question. The endorsements on the beautiful cover by celebrities like Ethelbert Miller, Dr. Tijan M. Salah and professor Jonah Raskin are bound to evoke great expectations in new readers. I would like to say that they will most likely find in my select writings a wide-ranging variety of themes, personalities and concerns.

By exploring and examining the life and work of a very eclectic list of writers, poets, social reformers, spiritual giants, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, monarchs, statesmen, artists, and intellectuals, I have tried to show that compassion and sensitivity to human concerns, the ability of individuals to be the change they wish to see in the world, the courage and the grit to challenge the status quo,  defending the right of individuals to exist as individuals, the ordinariness of the extraordinary pursuits of enlightened humans in the terrain of all the temporal as well as universal, are bound to keep them riveted to the collection.

            Robin Lindley: The book is a gift to readers. I enjoyed the essays in your new book, and the introduction to several writers and scholars who were new to me. A subtitle for Mirror could be something like Writing Without Borders.

In the introduction, you describe this anxious time during a deadly global pandemic, and conclude that section with this inspiring sentence: “Let us all come together as members of One World to fight and defeat the forces of pestilences and usher in a glorious Republic of peace, prosperity and happiness without any discrimination.” It’s obvious that transcending boundaries is important to you. How can the humanities, the arts, help do this?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Thank you for enjoying reading through Mirror. Yes, I agree that in keeping with the contents of the book, ‘Writing Without Borders’ could very well be taken as a subtitle.

I have always believed from my own experience of interface with people from different communities, religions, nations, cultures and the like, that innately there is in all of us a craving for a world without borders. It is only when we begin to get out of what Robert Frost calls the “Mending Wall” syndrome that real communication takes place in a spirit of easy give and take. I may cite from my own life as a case in point. I was born in Poona (now Pune), the land of the Maratha ruler Shivaji, into a Bengali household. My mother tongue is Bengali. I have lived in the Hindi heartland most of my life. My wife ( to whom I have dedicated the book) is a Punjabi. I have felt hugely enriched by not restricting myself to particular climes and regions be it national or international. I have loved and enjoyed reading Mark Twain and Ernest Hemingway as much as Anton Chekhov, Albert Camus or Gabriel Garcia Marquez. If you look at the titles – “Beyond Boundaries.” “Embracing the World,” “Shaping Minds,” “Erasing Barricades,” Multicultural America” etc. – of many of the books that I have authored and edited, you may notice that harmony and oneness constitute the essence of my creative and critical endeavors.

As an instance of my approach to overcoming prejudices and stereotypes, I would like to share an experience with a Pakistani gentleman. On my return home from the Fulbright tenure at the University of Washington, Seattle, I received a call from one Zeeshan-ul-hassan Usmani requesting me to edit a collection of essays written by Fulbrighters from India to America and from America to India. Considering the enormity of the task and constraints of time, I said no. In the next minute, Zeeshan said that could I reconsider my decision in the light of the fact that his mother hails from Agra. I had no alternative. I named the collection Beyond Boundaries. The arts and the humanities can go a long way to create bridges between cultures. In 2017, Re-Markings brought out A World Assembly of Poets as its signature Special Number, guest-edited by Dr. Tijan M. Sallah. The contributors included poets from all the five continents and over sixty countries. Even a cursory glance at the volume will convince you how only in the true Republic of Poets all demarcations separating one individual from the other can disappear.

If you look at the list of contents in Mirror from the Indus, you may notice that the figures taken into account are from various communities, religion and culture: Hindu, Brahmin, Dalit, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, Christian, Anglo-Indian, French, Canadian, British and what have you.

Robin Lindley: Your work brings light and pulses with your love of humanity and justice. Do you consider yourself a humanist?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Yes, obviously. It is not a crime, I guess, to profess the love of humanity and justice.

In our own era, from a pragmatic point of view, it may be gainful to avoid clichés like justice and human values because the majority always tends to remain in the mainstream and go with the flow of the current but I strongly agree with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s statement that “our life begins to lose meaning the day we become silent about things that matter.” I learnt very early from my experiences in several roles, that if one decides to fight for justice at any level one must learn to conquer both ‘temptation’ and ‘fear.’ I have always tried to portray this through my own actions and through all my writings, talks and lectures.

            Robin Lindley: Your writing reflects those values. And, in your writing and well researched articles, you make me want to read and learn more, particularly from the authors and books you cite. You spark further research and thinking. Is it fair to call you a literary activist?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: If activists are not identified with any flag-carrying activities, I would not mind being called a literary activist. Each issue of Re-Markings in its 20-year journey has remained committed to its manifesto of highlighting broad socio-political and cultural issues of human import so as to promote harmony through healthy interactive discussions and debates. Even when I am lecturing or delivering a talk to audiences comprising the youth, I remain focused on what each of us can do in our individual capacities to reduce discrimination, disparity and prejudice that create yawning gulfs among one individual or group and another.

            Robin Lindley: Bridging gulfs between people is a noble goal in today’s world. In your tribute to Mahatma Gandhi and his relevance now, you note how he influenced the likes of President Barack Obama and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who called Gandhi’s influence “inescapable.” What do you think Dr. King meant?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Please allow me to cite the words of Barack Obama on Gandhi that I have used in my tribute to Gandhi in Mirror: “He (Gandhi) inspired Dr. Martin Luther King. . . if it hadn't been for the non-violent movement in India, you might not have seen the same non-violent movement for civil rights here in the United States. . . He was able to help people who thought they had no power realize that they had power, and then help people who had a lot of power realize that if all they're doing is oppressing people, then that's not a really good exercise of power."  

Dr. King had reiterated that Gandhi had “lived, thought, and acted, inspired by the vision of humanity evolving toward a world of peace and harmony. We may ignore him at our own risk.”

In a world torn by conflict and violence, Gandhi’s ideals of “truth and non-violence” may seem at times quite anachronistic but there is much logic in his simple observation that “an eye for an eye would make the whole world blind.” As a politician, Gandhi may have made mistakes but as a mortal he continued to perform his experiments with truth till the very end of his life.

Robin Lindley: You’re well acquainted with the lives of Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi and others who have worked for social justice and tolerance. To help readers understand their strategy in working for justice, how do you think nonviolent resistance now might advance the dismantling of systemic racism in the US—and perhaps quell the political and religious friction in India?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: That’s a complex question. In order to dismantle the solid structures of systemic racism in US and political and religious friction in India on the lines of Martin Luther King and Gandhi, it is necessary that leadership must spring from the youth who will be able to project and guard the interests and concerns of their respective communities without bothering about promoting their own vested self-interests.

Mindsets cannot be changed with speeches and slogans; they can be broken only through sterling acts of self-sacrifice. Gandhi was forthright in pointing out in the “Introduction” to his Autobiography that “My experiments have not been conducted in the closet, but in the open…. My purpose is to describe experiments in the science of Satyagraha, not to say how good I am. In judging myself I shall try to be as harsh as truth, as I want others also to be.” What is relevant to caste/race applies equally to religion.

Robin Lindley: You comment on many literary giants in your new book with sensitivity and understanding. I loved the jungle stories and other writing of Rudyard Kipling when I was young but later came to see him, as George Orwell did, as a hidebound British jingoist and imperialist and thus ignored his writing. You have a more thoughtful and nuanced view. How do you see Kipling’s writing?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: I do not wish to contest your dislike of Kipling and his writings but do allow me to point out that George Orwell, in the same remark that you allude to, admitted that “During five literary generations every enlightened person has despised him, and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there.”

In my view, in spite of Kipling’s jingoistic imperialism, he commands admiration of readers by his sensitive approach to human problems. For over a century now, Rudyard Kipling’s poetic utterance, “Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,” has been used time and again, both in and out of context, by all and sundry to define visible boundaries that demarcate civilizations characterized by the East and the West. Consequently, I thought of doing a bit of research to find out what led Kipling to draw such an inference.

It is indeed ironical that Kipling’s most misunderstood statement is generally used by those who have probably not read the poem at all. Through a single line, they are quick to conclude that there exists an unbridgeable gulf between the two civilizations – one supposedly ultramodern and the other gradually rising out of a relatively primitive past. Endowed by the bliss of ignorance, they tend to ignore, perhaps deliberately, the true import of Kipling’s observation that does not end with the line mentioned above but goes on to the length of a full quatrain that reaffirms human belief in synthesis and synchronicity by cutting across cultural barriers. The quatrain with which Kipling’s 1892 poem, “Ballad of East and West,” begins and ends reads thus:

Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth.

In my piece on Kipling in Mirror I have shared my inference that Kipling sees the relationship between the ruler and ruled not permanently confined to master/slave binaries but one that can, through courage and daring, meet on the level ground of equality.

In both spirit and flesh Kipling’s poetic statement ought to transform those who espouse the idea that civilizations should never mix and that cultural barriers are insurmountable. In the present era of communication and satellite revolutions it may be futile and superfluous to imagine that “mortal millions” should remain isolated and “alone” in inviolable cultural isles of their own. Also, you may have noticed from your reading of The Jungle Book how Kipling draws our attention to ways and means to deal with the environmental crises that we are now facing.

            Robin Lindley: Thank you for those comments on Kipling’s still relevant words. In discussing the work of Somerset Maugham, you state: “Above all, Maugham has succeeded in demonstrating through The Moon and Sixpence that masterpieces are eternal contemporaries of mankind and have value and significance beyond the immediate confines of a particular moment in history.” How do you see “the confines of history”?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Frankly speaking, what drew me to The Moon and Sixpence by Somerset Maugham was my deep interest in the life of Paul Gauguin. In school, I had read somewhere that when Gauguin had gone nearly bankrupt after quitting his job as a stock-broker in Paris, and his wife had scorned him saying that if his paintings couldn’t even buy some medicines and a glass of milk for their ailing son, they were really worth nothing. Gauguin had calmly accepted that, though she was right then, yet his paintings would someday adorn the Louvre Museum in Paris.

Somerset Maugham’s fictional biography reminds us that though, striving for the ‘Moon’, Paul Gauguin may have landed himself with only ‘Sixpence’ in his lifetime, but what is significant is how posterity has acknowledged his immortal creations.

My reference to “the confines of history” suggests that immortality of an artist can never be judged by contemporary appraisal of art but must await the continuous assessment of time beyond the immediate moment in history.         

            Robin Lindley: I enjoyed your tribute to the renowned English poet W. H. Auden, the subject of your disseratation. You write that Auden, though not a church-going Christian, saw the teachings of Jesus as “a strong reaction against the evil and absurdity of class and racial prejudice.” What did Auden see in the words of Jesus?

            Professor Nibir Ghosh: Thanks for your appreciation of my tribute to W. H. Auden in Mirror from the Indus. Auden’s views and his interpretations of Christianity are both descriptive and prescriptive. His prose pieces are as elaborately concerned with Christianity as his poetic outpourings.

In numerous essays, Auden explores the theme of Christianity in its essence and tries to relate its relevance to man’s needs in contemporary society. For Auden, even a bleak post-war landscape attains significance when viewed through the perspectives of a Christian world. Though the chaotic conditions exist yet there is an undercurrent of hope that the situation is redeemable.

Auden considers God to be “the cause and sustainer of the universe” and says that “our real desire is to be one with Him. . . Ultimately that is the purpose of all our actions.” He demands that God should be invoked to restore order and meaning to the universe: “Let us praise our Maker, with true passion extol Him/ For, united by His word, cognition and power, / System and Order, are a single glory.”

Auden affirms the value of faith and what it can achieve. He extols the idea of faith in a world devoid of spiritual values. In his personal life too, Auden was wholly devoid of self-importance or pretentiousness, and he often revealed a humility that was both deep and genuine. Kindness and generosity were traits of his individual behavior.

On the basis of faith in God, Auden is able to assess the nature of ‘Love’ in a deeper and more precise manner. It is my strong assumption that Auden believed in the solitary and silent mode of praying and not in prayer as a spiritual exercise. He criticized the sectarian spirit displayed by the churches but honestly believed in the quintessence of Christianity. Christianity, for him, stood for something more profound than the celebration of empty ceremonials.

Robin Lindley: You’re a friend of award-winning author, professor, public intellectual, and all-around brilliant scholar and artist Charles Johnson, a University of Washington professor emeritus. You wrote a book about his work, Charles Johnson: Embracing the World, with American poet and literary activist E. Ethelbert Miller. You also worked with Professor Johnson at the UW. How did you come to work with him and how do you see his place in the pantheon of American literary figures?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: Many years ago, when the Public Affairs Section of U.S. Embassy, New Delhi, informed me that Charles Johnson—author of Middle Passage, Oxherding Tale, Dreamer etc., a MacArthur Fellow and winner of the National Book Award—was visiting India on a lecture tour, and that I was to accompany him in India, I was thrilled by the prospect of interviewing him against the backdrop of the Taj Mahal.  My enthusiasm did not last long as his visit did not ultimately materialize on account of the Iraq war. Perhaps Fate had ordained that we would meet not in Agra but at the University of Washington, Seattle.

Initially, when I was awarded the prestigious Senior Fulbright Fellowship, my choice as the place of work was City University New York with Professor Morris Dickstein as my faculty associate. When I was given an additional option by CIE in Washington, DC., I decided to join the University of Washington as my project was on contemporary African American Writings, with Charles Johnson as my faculty associate.

Two days after settling down at an apartment at Furman Avenue (thanks to the kind courtesy of professor Richard Dunn, HOD English), we were pleasantly surprised to see at our dwelling none but the famed Charles Johnson himself who, accompanied by his daughter Elizabeth, came to visit us. I warmly welcomed him by wrapping a shawl around him as we honor scholars in India. Guess how he reciprocated! He gave me a huge packet he had brought for us. When I untied the fancy ribbons and opened the packet, there lay in front of us over two score books—novels, essays, interviews, photo-autobiography, and so much more—all of which he had authored. His endearing inscription on each one of them made them all the more valuable. I instantly realized the extent of his magnanimity and goodness that I had hitherto seen in his correspondence. I may also mention here that Dr. Sunita’s project, as a Visiting Scholar at the School of Asian Languages, UOW under the guidance of professor Michael Shapiro, was translating Johnson’s novel Dreamer into Hindi.

My frequent long conversations with him contributed significantly to my understanding of the nuances and complexities of certain basic issues confronting contemporary America and also inspired me to engage in fruitful conversations many other celebrities within and beyond Afro-America. 

We were truly privileged to be introduced by Charles to August Wilson who invited us to dinner at the Broadway Grill. The animated exchanges that I had with authors like August Wilson, David Guterson, Octavia Butler, Jonah Raskin, Ethelbert Miller, Kathleen Alcala and others besides Charles Johnson, flowered into a precious collection titled Multicultural America: Conversations with Contemporary Authors (2005).

Before meeting Charles Johnson, I was very much familiar with the works of Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison and James Baldwin and many other African American writers, poets, philosophers and critics. In my view Johnson has created an enviable niche for himself in the pantheon of African American writings.

Robin Lindley: How would you describe Professor Johnson’s style and voice as a writer of fiction and nonfiction?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: As you may be aware, Johnson’s work, especially his fictional output, is firmly grounded in Philosophy. I truly admire his non-fiction where his voice is most pronounced and impactful. His Buddhist leanings have not only added to the glory of his writings but also contributed a great deal to his abiding generosity and compassion that one can instantly recognize on meeting and talking to him.

I had interviewed him for my book, Multicultural America: Conversations with Contemporary Authors and also for Re-Markings. It is very significant that hinting at the danger of living in a parochial cultural fishbowl, he lyrically resonates the need for a completely new outlook that makes some narrow race-centered complaints irrelevant in an increasingly complex multicultural and global economy. He not only loves to address the symptoms of change in terms of acute identity crisis but also tries to prepare the aesthetic ground for such a change. Our mutual bonds of friendship brought him to Agra where I enjoyed his and Sharyn’s loving company with the Taj as a backdrop in February 2018.

Robin Lindley: You’re a sensitive reader with innovative views of the literature you consider in your writing. I was struck by an essay you wrote on Joseph Heller’s classic satirical and painful war novel, Catch-22. You mentioned Wilfred Owens’ famous words on “the pity of war.” How did you come to write about Heller’s book? Are there other works on war you’d suggest for readers?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: As I have mentioned earlier in this conversation, a chapter of my book Calculus of Power: Modern American Political Novel is titled “In the Theatre of War” where I have taken up for discussion four war novels: For Whom the Bell Tolls by Ernest Hemingway, Catch-22 by Joseph Heller, The Armies of the Night by Norman Mailer and Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

Heller’s novel Catch-22 has always fascinated me for its unique approach to war and all that it involves. The central problem before the novel’s protagonist is to find means and devise a strategy to survive in the hostile bureaucratic system. It is through Yossarian’s inner conflict mainly that one gets a fairly good idea of what it means to be trapped in such a system. Heller exposes the hypocrisy of the bureaucratic enterprise based on the purely vested interests of those who are at the top of the hierarchy and who want the war to go on irrespective of the need for a motive. He is decidedly against the capricious self-seekers who are either making money or having fun at the expense of performing heroic deeds in order to win honor and worship for he feels he can easily be replaced by any of the ‘ten million people in uniform.’

Unlike Fortinbras (in Shakespeare’s Hamlet) who was prepared to risk the lives of twenty thousand men for an egg shell, Yossarian has only one passion: to stay alive and fight those in power who were about to get him. He lives in perpetual dread of everything he could possibly imagine.

In a carnivalesque spirit Heller exposes the hypocrisy of the military bureaucracy without undermining, of course, the military strength and superiority of the United States of America. Through the use of unconventional mode of aesthetic expression, blending pungent humour with the horrifying spectacle of war, Heller succeeds in conveying that the conventional heroics associated with war are no longer tenable in the modern era.

Robin Lindley: I appreciated the introduction in your new book to the work of Dalit poet Namdeo Dhasal. Decades ago, we were taught in my public school that the Indian caste system was extremely rigid and that Untouchables or Dalits were outcasts doomed to lives of drudgery and brutal discrimination without hope of social mobility. What is the reality of the caste system now and the situation of Dalits today?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: What you were taught decades ago about Indian caste system being extremely rigid has been in resonance with ground reality even in contemporary times.

As the ambivalence of the “American Dilemma” continues to haunt the conscience of the most powerful democracy in the world, the USA, no less problematic is the issue of Caste for the world’s largest democracy, India. During elections it can be seen how important a role caste plays in determining the suitability of a contestant fielded by any political party.

 According to many noted Dalit writers, it is true that oppression and humiliation of the Dalits have not ceased. They exist still in subtler variations in many segments of society and polity despite sweeping changes in legislations and legal sanctions.

I have specifically mentioned in my essay on Namdeo Dhasal in Mirror from the Indus that. though India can take pride in upholding its democratic credentials by installing two Dalit Presidents in the Rashtrapati Bhavan and electing a Dalit woman chief minister four times in the largest state in India besides numerous ministers to the union and state cabinets, it cannot be denied that Dr. B. R. Ambedkar’s dream of liberty, equality and fraternity continues to elude the Dalit community in India.

My view is that the Dalits in India and the African Americans in the US who come from poor economic backgrounds must be made to understand the importance of upward mobility through education and work skills despite all the challenges that may threaten such initiatives. Also, the ones who have reached the higher echelons of power through affirmative action/reservation must take the initiative to encourage their less fortunate brethren to rise and shine in a grossly unequal world.

A large measure of hope for the Dalits lies in the fact that they are getting increasingly articulate in projecting their rights and responsibilities through their writings in print and social media.

Robin Lindley: When Dr. King visited India in 1959, a school principal referred to him as an American “Untouchable.” King was stunned but, on reflection, agreed with that assessment. A big question, but from what you know of America and our history, is the view of Black people in the US comparable how Dalits or “Untouchables” are seen and treated in India?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: Dr. King may have been surprised to be seen as a “Black Untouchable” in 1959 because he may not have been aware of the fact that Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, the Dalit icon, had first brought to light the similarities between the predicament of the African Americans in the US and the Dalits in India in terms of oppression, discrimination and inequality.

W. E. B. Dubois had written a letter to Dr. Ambedkar lauding his leadership in the Dalit cause. Dr. Ambedkar had inspired and encouraged several Dalit scholars to go to the U.S. to study African American literature and to interact with activists in the field. African American literature, consequently, served as a model for Dalits in India who wanted to give expression to their suffering and agony on account of centuries of exploitation and discrimination. Time and again, Dr. Ambedkar pointed out to his devout followers that they could learn from their African American counterparts how to articulate their emotions with boldness and daring. Using the activist model provided by the Black Panther movement, the Dalit Panther movement was created in Maharashtra.

There are close parallels where race in the US and caste in India are concerned though some, like Lama Rangdrol, may argue that the Dalits live in greater misery than the average black in America.

Though atrocities against Dalits continue to be seen in India, it cannot be denied that changes in attitude are also visible in Dalit writings. New ways of thinking, the outlook of the new generation, scientific and technological advancement, the IT revolution etc. have affected a paradigm shift in peoples’ consciousness.

The discriminatory modes too have undergone changes. The social media and the internet provide the opportunity to connect with everyone on earth without the prejudice of caste, creed, color, religion or nationality. 

Robin Lindley: Like me, many readers may be puzzled by the ongoing religious tensions and eruptions of violence on the south Asian subcontinent. Did the tensions today originate with the partition and independence in 1947, or was there always violence between the two primary religions, Hindu and Muslim? This topic is worthy of many books, but what’s your sense?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: It would not be correct to conclude that religious tensions and eruptions of violence between the Hindu and Muslim communities in India originated as a result of the partition of the nation in 1947. Of course, the partition drew a permanent wedge in the two communities and those who had lived in peace and harmony for ages turned foes overnight and participated in orgies of violence that remain unparalleled in the history of the sub-continent.

In my opinion the Hindu-Muslim discord is a legacy of the divide-and-rule policy of the British Government. The First War of Independence (which the British designate as a mutiny), that took place in 1857 and literally shook the citadel of English rule in India, was fought with the Hindus joining hands with the Muslims to drive away the British. Consequently, after the failure of the combined forces, the British power realized that in order to consolidate their Empire, it was necessary to pit one community against the other. In fact, the English succeeded in their sinister design by creating pressure groups who advocated the partition of the country. It is, however, relevant to note that the Indian National Army (INA) under the leadership of the revolutionary leader Subhas Chandra Bose offers a unique example of Hindu-Muslim amity and brotherhood.

Even today, the legacy of creating communal discord under the divide-and-rule policy seems to be a convenient tool in the hands of politicians to sustain their political existence.

Robin Lindley: Our current president Donald Trump and India’s Prime Minister Modi are seen by some commentators as similar in that they both use fear and division to appeal to their political bases. Our countries are very different, but do you agree with that view of the two leaders? How do you see them?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: History bears evidence to the fact that be it democracy or dictatorship, the leaders do resort to the use of fear and division to keep themselves in power. The strategy of the two leaders you mention may be quite similar when it comes to consolidating their respective political bases. But what makes Modi different is that he enjoys the admiration of people from the lower economic strata on account of his ability to connect with them on one-to-one basis through his emotional speeches and seemingly genuine concern.

Robin Lindley: Indian writing in English is gaining popularity in the United States. Who are a few Indian writers or books you’d recommend to American readers?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: Since most American readers are already aware of the much-hyped works of Booker and Pulitzer Prize recipients who are immigrant US citizens, I would recommend writers like R. K. Narayan, Mulk Raj Anand, Raja Rao, U. R. Ananthamurthy, Mahashweta Devi, Munshi Premchand, Nissim Ezekiel, Jayanta Mahapatra among numerous others.

Robin Lindley: You thoughtfully consider this era of the COVID 19 pandemic in the introduction to Mirror from the Indus and in your recent blog entries. The United States now leads the world in COVID cases and deaths. What is the situation in India with the pandemic?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: India is closely following on the heels of the United States in the domain of rising COVID 19 pandemic cases. Population density is a major cause for worry in India. Poverty, unemployment, lack of health care and infrastructure facilities add to the challenge. In fact the onus of protection from the Corona virus largely rests on individuals in terms of social distancing and sanitization. Ayurvedic medicine and herbs seem to provide some hope for increasing immunity to check the effect of the virus.

Robin Lindley: You offer many encouraging and wise words at this time of peril for the entire globe. Where do you find hope at this uncertain and challenging time?

Professor Nibir Ghosh: I have elaborately stated in the Preface to Mirror from the Indus that what we need most in this time of peril is to heed the voices of philosophers, poet-prophets, writers and intellectuals who have warned us time and again to bring in a revolutionary change in our attitude and approach to halt our onerous march toward doom.

Like mindless robots we have often refused to listen to the voices of sanity. In 1762, at the very beginning of The Social Contract Jean-Jacques Rousseau had asserted that “man is born free and everywhere he is in chains” and had suggested that the only way we could break the fetters was to “return to nature.” Following Rousseau, William Wordsworth warned us to refrain from entering the whirlpool of the endless cycle of getting and spending. Rather than enter into a “Social Contract” to breach the unsurmountable gulf between affluence and poverty, mankind moved on, unmindful of impending catastrophes, presuming that the powerful, the wealthy and the affluent would always remain untouched by such storms of adversity.

We are bound to feel pessimistic when we are reminded about the recent happening in Minneapolis where four white policemen attempted, in the manner of the deadly virus, to create respiratory problems leading to the death of George Floyd, a black American. The event clearly demonstrates the human resolve to continue with the status quo of the powerful asserting their dominance over the oppressed and powerless wings of society.

However, it can certainly be hoped now that the day is not too far away when one could assuage the accumulated guilt of centuries by inculcating the feelings of compassion and universal brotherhood toward the downtrodden and helpless masses. We must learn to accept the paradigm shift from the emphasis on integration and inter-connectivity of a globalized world to the new norms of social distancing, isolation and quarantine. COVID 19 has come with numerous lessons for mankind, the most prominent being the need for compassion, fellow-feeling of love and brotherhood for one and all.

If we join our hands and hearts in this hour of grave global crisis, curb our own immediate self-interests, and work in communion for a society where individual happiness can coexist in harmony with the general good of all, there is enough room for hope and optimism.

Robin Lindley: Thank you Professor Ghosh for your illuminating comments and congratulations on your compelling new book Mirror of the Indus. It’s sure to be a resource for many years to come. And, as renowned American poet and a past University of Washington professor Theodore Roethke said, “In a dark time, the eye begins to see.” At this anxious time, I find your words and your writing reassuring, and I know other readers too will appreciate the light you cast at this dark time.

Professor Nibir Ghosh: Thanks Robin for your deep interest in my work. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I shall be happy if the light of my book illumines even a little corner of a heart in despair. 

Robin Lindley is a Seattle-based writer and attorney. He is features editor for the History News Network (hnn.us), and his work also has appeared in Re-Markings, Writer’s Chronicle, Crosscut, Documentary, Huffington Post, Bill Moyers.com, Salon.com, NW Lawyer, ABA Journal, Real Change, and more. He has a special interest in the history of human rights, conflict, medicine, and art. He can be reached by email: robinlindley@gmail.com.

Reprinted from History News Network September 26, 2020. http://www.hnn.us/blog/154408

Comments on the Interview

 

Dear Nibir,

 

It was an extraordinary pleasure indeed to hear from you and to read the wonderful and erudite interview of you by Robin Lindley.  I very much appreciated having the opportunity to read to piece and to learn something of the journey by which you have had such a productive and influential academic career.  It was gratifying to read how the period during which you were at the University of Washington played a role in this journey. --Professor Michael C. Shapiro, University of Washington, Seattle, USA

 

Very revealing and interesting interview, Prof. Ghosh.  I hadn’t realized you started with a background in the sciences and later became an eminent humanist and literary scholar.  Thanks for sharing it. – Dr. Tijan M. Sallah, Gambian writer and poet & former World Bank Executive

Dear Nibir, Thanks. This is great. The attention you and your work receive in USA is well deserved!!  Jonah Raskin, Writer and poet, California

Hi Nibir, 

It was quite an extensive, wide-ranging read. I especially like what you wrote about how literature cannot exist when isolated from history and culture, a point that cannot be stressed enough in more postmodern circles these days. And I have never noted the Christianity connection in Auden before, so that was a quick education for me. My favourite part is probably when you write: “Mindsets cannot be changed with speeches and slogans; they can be broken only through sterling acts of self-sacrifice.” I couldn’t agree more. And I always appreciate the optimism and enthusiasm with which you always try to build bridges across gulfs of cultural differences. Thank you! --Cyril Wong, Writer & Poet, Singapore

MANY MANY congratulations!!!  I am printing it to enjoy it ASAP (in a better chair and moment) your deep, wise, erudite and vibrant interview as I see in my fast first glances…It has the best aspect and I am going to be very happy!  Again many congrats! – Dr. Margarita Merino, Spanish American writer and poet.

Dear Nibir

 

Thank you for being in touch. Good to hear from you. I have just finished reading the interview with Robin Lindley which I found very interesting. Much food for thought.  

I feel that there needs to be a far deeper understanding about racial discrimination, colour prejudice and the roots of prejudice.  The Black Lives Matter movement which has swept the world in response to the treatment of George Floyd, needs to make sure that issues do not become a Pavlov trigger. Prejudice cannot be simplified.  We all have prejudices and overcoming them is not something that can be forced and is an individual challenge – but what should not happen is indiscriminate violence or any violence as inevitably the innocent get hurt.  Gandhi’s peaceful way is far more powerful and retains dignity.  By the way somewhere I read some criticism about remarks he had made about Africans in South Africa and wondered what he said.  The language of political correctness while avoiding derogatory expressions, can, at the same time, make a nonsense of language.  Of course black lives matter.  As with the Dalits and untouchables in India, there has been huge and offensive discrimination but your point is important that as well as jurisdiction education is the key.  I was told that some Universities in America are considering withdrawing or dumbing down certain courses because they are too challenging for some black students. That is not the way forward.   Toppling statues is in my view absurd – a waste of time.  There have been many comments about this here – and museums are shifting certain statues out of the way so that they do not cause offence.  There has been so much ‘woke’ take up of the MeToo movement and Transgender rights that genuine human sympathy seems to get swamped and debate ceases to exist on issues that are not at all straightforward. 

I am glad you pointed out that the English had encouraged Hindu/Muslim division in the interests of divide and rule.  But what is to blame for the current divisions?  Have you read The Silk Roads: A New History of The World (published in 2015) by Peter Frankopan?  I was struck how fluid religions were at one stage, borrowing from each other.   The Crusades of course were divisive, another form of imperialism.       

I had not realized that your early Ph.D. was on Auden.   I also thought it good that you were able to remind people about the rest of Kipling’s poem which provides a perspective on the famous line about East and West.  It is always unsettling when one is confronted by prejudice in admired writers or politicians – anti-semitism in Eliot, Churchill’s attitude to India and so forth – but one can still appreciate what is good in these people, while aware of failings.

I would be interested to read your book Mirror from the Indus.—Anita (Auden) Money, London

Dear Nibir,

Finally, on the fight back to Austria, I found the quiet time to read through your interview with Robin Lindley, and I think he did a great job introducing your professional achievements in the fields of American, British and Post-Modern Literature and Culture to the readers. Congrats!

To my delight, I also discovered an Austrian component in your dissertation about W. H. Auden, who spent the last years of his life in the village of Kirchstetten not far from Vienna, and actually died in a Vienna hotel shortly after one of his readings. I like his poetry but must confess I have never been to Kirchstetten - maybe something I should do next summer.

Currently, the pandemic is flapping its wings again across the globe, and I wish you all the best, and stay safe! Walter Hoelbling, Graz, Austria

Dear Nibir

It's a very good interview. I agree with you about Kipling! And Gandhi. I've just published a book about Gandhi and Tolstoy and have become very wrapped up in them. I hope you are working on something new also. -- Imraan Coovadia,  South African novelist.

MANY MANY congratulations!!!  I am printing it to enjoy it ASAP (in a better chair and moment) your deep, wise, erudite and vibrant interview as I see in my fast first glances…It has the best aspect and I am going to be very happy!  Again many congrats! –

The (deep) interview is truly excellent!   Many congrats!! It is erudite, sensitive, acute; it dismantles prejudices in understanding great authors and texts in whole, it connects with essential issues and themes in life and literature…  Robin LIndley did a great job with his questions too.

I am sure he is really proud about the enlightening product you both bring to all your readers ...  I would like to write something about your marvelous ways of making the world a better place no matter the humility of my words...  Sorry for the delays… 

Worries, pandemic, a lot of writing, deaths, almost depression when the monstrous specimen who tries to twist the result of the election is still in charge…  Take great care of you and your family.   We need you, your kindness, understanding, insights and compassionated heart!  The very best always, M. -- Dr. Margarita Merino, Spanish- American writer and poet.

Congratulations, Nibir. 😊🙏🏽—Dr. Deena Padayachee, Durban, South Africa

Dear Dr. Ghosh (Nibirda)

Very sorry to respond to your mail late. I took some time to go through your conversation with Mr. Robin Lindley, and I read it 3 times, before I thought I may respond to you, an erudite scholar & luminary in the domain of English Literature and History.

I happened to have spent most of my time in the pursuit of development of indigenous Technologies and Systems for the Indian Armed Forces. However I always felt illuminated with your thought process in articulating your responses on various issues through your literary works across the Globe. It has pervaded beyond the boundaries of space, religion, caste, creed & culture, constantly trying to evolve a common meeting ground for peace and well being of humanity at large. This conversation too is not an exception. It has tempted me to read your book sometime Mirror from the Indus with all concentration it deserves.

Being in the Science and Technology domain, one quote of the famous scientist Albert Einstein — “Concern for Man and his fate must always form the chief interest of all technical endeavours. Never forget this in the midst of diagrams and equations”—has always been a guide and inspiration for me. Here again, I find a common meeting ground you created between us, where you affirm, “Literature isolated from history and culture cannot exist on its own.”

The excellent way you projected your soul-searching  and satisfaction in literary works— “combine vocation with avocation” —sends out a great message to the world for choosing individual’s vocation. I cannot agree more on this aspect, and would wait for its continuous assessment of time beyond the immediate moments of history.

It is heartening that you responded to Mr. Robin Lindley about how Technology/IT revolution is changing people’s consciousness levels beyond boundaries for humane benefits to the toiling and Dalit masses of the world.

Sir, I have one question on this text of conversation to you…. While agreeing to the fact that the British sowed the seed of Hindu Muslim divide for their sinister design to divide and rule—the partition of the country on religious lines, when we were getting our freedom, has thrown up a very big question on our leadership during independence —and has always been a black spot on Indian History. Shall we not find a suitable answer for the same?

Last but not the least, my deepest appreciation is for Mr. Robin Lindley, the historian, whose analytical ability in framing the questions, quest to understand matters across the boundaries, brings out the best of our Nibirda, the great exponent of English Literature activist & Emeritus Professor Dr. Nibir Ghosh from India.

Robin Lindley’s caption to the Interview: “Inspiration from the Banks of Indus River—a Conversation with Dr. Nibir Ghosh” deserves accolade and relevance in today’s context of global literary discourse. -- Debasish Chakraborti, Outstanding Scientist & Former Director, ADRDE (DRDO), Agra, & Former Principal Associate Director, NSTL, (DRDO), Visakhapatnam.

What a relief to hear your voice after what seemed an eternity! Most delightful surprise, your conversation with HNN Features Editor, Robin Lindley. –Dr. Ramesh Chand Shah, writer, poet, critic. Padma Shree and Sahitya Akademi recipient, Bhopal.

Dear Nibir,

Thank you for sending me the lengthy interview. At my age and present dissuading times, reading it line by line seemed a daunting, herculean task. Today I took time off amidst my loud cups of tea, in this morning session to make a serious attempt to read the interview in full. Lo and behold, I did it. Nibir, this was fascinating journey into the realms of English Literature, mainly American literature, to be precise. American literature had been just introduced in my time (1967-69). I was among the just handful of students, who opted. After 50 years, I got reconnected with Literature again. The Interviewer, Prof. Robin Lindley, seemed to be a reservoir of deep knowledge. The facile introduction allowed me a kaleidoscopic insight of your profound literary career at a glance that was not really known to me. You delightfully negotiated his questions like an ace batsman, delectably, effortlessly dispatching the ball all over the fence and remained not out (now in the midst of cricketing season). I thoroughly enjoyed the session. Moreover, I notice that you have built up a refined, erudite personality in consonance with your vast acquired knowledge. I have not seen you for a while now and eagerly look forward to see you soon. -- Ashok Chakravarty, Former Member, Human Rights Commission, New Delhi.

Jai Hind Sir! It's an excellent peace of intellectual vision. Our heartiest congratulations to have such an honour. Always proud of you! –Group Captain Jai Pal Singh Chauhan, Air Force Station, Faridabad.

Enjoyed reading it. Not only is the interview interesting, I also discovered so many new things about you and your writings. congratulations on your new book - Mirror from the Indus. Thanks for sharing. – Prof. Jasbir Jain, University of Rajasthan, Jaipur

Dear Nibirji,

A marvellous Interview! Questions and your answers, all of them, so learned and clear. Enjoyed reading the whole interview. Heartiest Congratulations! I  hope it will be seen in print as well. -- Prof. Santosh Gupta, University of Rajasthan, Jaipur

Thanks so much, Nibir, for this special forward. Both humbling and illuminating to read. It has strengthened my respect for the quality and range of your work, commitment and perseverance. I look forward to reading Mirror from the Indus. Prof. Mini Nanda, University of Rajasthan, Jaipur

Thank you Dr Ghosh for sharing this information. I am really happy and feel proud about it all. I will go through the interview and then give my comments, though I have no idea about this new book of yours. The title, Mirror from the Indus, is catchy. Congratulations for this book and also for the name and fame that come in its wake. You have been doing a commendable job in being able to publish so much.  I know it must require persistent and consistent effort on your part. Kudos to you for all of this. -- Dr. Sanjay Mishra, RBS College, Agra

It's a treat to read your literary gems, Sir. Such deep insight into diverse literary, cultural and historical affairs! It's a privilege to be a part of the Re-Markings family. More success and power to you always. Dr. Ashoo Toor, Punjab Agricultural University, Ludhiana

I am very happy for you. Another one of the moments for the world to know about your work 🙏—Dr. Monali Bhattacharya, JIIT, Noida

Just finished reading the entire interview. How brilliantly you put yourself across! Such fluency, flow and rhythm of language is marvellous Sir.  How every time I read something from you it always evokes a feeling of how huge and expansive your ocean of knowledge and wisdom is. I admire your thought-provoking responses to the often-challenging questions. Your stand on various authors, personalities and their work reflect your expert research approach. Congratulations Sir on the success of your book. Your interview makes me curious to explore Mirror from the Indus soon. Dr. Roopali Khanna, Kala Sadhana, Agra

Dear Prof. Ghosh, Thank you so much for sharing the link of one of the most engaging “conversations” that I have read in a long time. Your detailed responses are a literary treasure and you pack in so much interesting information in each of your responses. What makes this piece even more precious is the humility with which you respond to the questions.  I could not discern any academic ego at play... but then I have been the recipient of your graciousness in sharing knowledge without any pretence. Dr. Anjali Singh, MLS University, Udaipur

Sir, It gives me tons of pleasure to enter the igniting life and literary voyage oa worldly acclaimed giant authority. Tons of congratulations for promoting a new platform through your doctoral work. What an amazing personality! I am amazed to explore sound & profound insights in British, American, and African literatures. I feel a deficit of words to appreciate the global & cosmic author. – Dr. Rajan Lal, Hindu College, Amroha

This is great news. Your book is really very good. I enjoyed reading it although I am not an avid reader. Your analysis and the content chosen is excellent. I am certain, it is years of your research that has made it possible. All the very best Heartiest Congratulations. Shravan Chemburkar, Mumbai

Dear Sir,

I read and thoroughly enjoyed the interview. It's an excellent piece with insights on many things from literature, history and cultural exchange among people of different followings. Hearty congratulations for the global reach! - Dr. Rahul Kamble, EFLU, Hyderabad

Dear Sir,

I enjoyed reading the interview. Please allow me to say I was not surprised that your academic horizon is so wide and versatile, covering the ground from African American literature to Dalit literature. I could not help thinking how analogous they are. Wish I could get hold of these books, especially Calculus of Power. I read about it on your website as well. It seemed like a consummate blend of major disciplines and issues dealt in some of the best novels America has produced. I was so glad to read about Catch 22 in the interview; it's one of the most amazing book that had caught my attention when I read that your book deals with Heller too. Mirror for the Indus sounds so brilliant too, oh how I love art that addresses the basic emotional predicament in a way that sensitises us, or as Bertolt Brecht would have us not be passive readers but active thinkers on being exposed to a work of art.

I have been of the same view as Mr. Lindley when it comes to Kipling. But your take on it intrigued me. I might need to unlearn prejudices of critics I have read, before I sit to read him. I think the way our education system works -- emphasising a lot on what the eminents have said and less on what you being an ordinary being think about. It really binds us with a singular stream of thought.

I was completely unaware of the fact that you have worked with the likes of Charles Johnson. I am stupefied and in awe. And how exquisitely you talk of teaching, it provides me with so much inspiration to become one. Even though I could not sit in your classes, I am so grateful for the opportunity I get to interact with you. A flicker of hope resonated when you talked about racism (one of the many problems that clings to the skirts of society), you exude light in a world that is slowly becoming devoid of it. Congratulations on your book, Sir.
Dhruvee Sinha, PG student, Patna University, Patna.

Awesome Sir... I never knew we used to play badminton with a Fulbright Scholar. Sir I have gone through the interview ... very interesting take although I have not been a student of literature but I do have some exposure in terms of works of Farewell to Arms, George Orwell etc... I wish I had time for such beautiful things in life.... I feel like taking out time for your new work Mirror from the Indus.... but I guess I should read all your works to have a feel of your comprehension.... but I find it interesting that we have such literary genius in our neighbourhood.... I specially liked your statement: "Literature isolated from history and culture cannot exist on its own"...🙏🙏 Dr. Gaurav Rohilla, Senior Scientist, ADRDE, Agra.

Dear Sir,

My heartiest congratulation to you for the astounding success of your latest work Mirror from the Indus. This work has not only given me an insight into lives of the several distinguished personalities with whom one may be familiar in some way but it is the reading of Mirror…  that made me take a new standpoint. It opened up an opportunity to look towards certain events with a fresh perspective and reassess their implications in light of the current scenario.

 

Fortunately, I read “INSPIRATION FROM THE BANKS OF THE INDUS RIVER: A CONVERSATION WITH NIBIR K. GHOSH” by Robin Lindley published in History News Network. This interview appears to me an appropriate supplementary read to your work. Robin Lindley has taken multiple slices out of Mirror… and put them under a microscopic examination. To a reader of Mirror… the interview serves as the key for decoding the author’s mind. Any seeking mind is likely to see one’s own reflection in the questions asked by Lindley. In your candid answers, you have talked about your formative days, the early tryst with literature, academic growth and humanist philosophy. This has broadened my understanding of the various works you have written over the years. Lindley’s questions are exhaustive and touch all the dimensions of the essays in Mirror... They are testimony to Lindley’s deep interest in history, law and literature.

 

To know more about the interviewer, I read Robin Lindley’s interview by you published in the current issue of Re-Markings (September 2020). Reading both the interviews simultaneously, where interviewer and interviewee have switched the roles and mutually transformed them into a lively conversation that delves into varied topics such as the current political situation of America and India, handling of the pandemic, religious tensions and status of the African Americans in the U.S. and the Dalits in India. Both the conversationalists stand on a common ground where they believe in expressing their thoughts fearlessly sans filters of pretence.

   

I am looking forward to reading more interviews by Robin Lindley for little can escape from the intellectual probe that he conducts so diligently. I sincerely hope that your "illuminating comments" keep shining on me. -- Saurabh Agarwal, Entrepreneur and freelance writer and poet (Agra).

I  read the interview with great interest.  It was quite informative. My heartiest  congratulations on the publication  of  Mirror from the Indus 👍👏. Dr. Arun Soule, Univ. of Rajasthan, Jaipur

Congratulations, Nibir. You have done Agra and India proud. – Dr. Pramila Chawla, BD Jain College, Agra

Sir, it was very enlightening to go through your talk with Robin Lindley. I will read your latest book. Thank you very much for giving the link. – Dr. R.P. Singh, Chattisgarh

Excellent sir. Congratulations. Fabulous conversation. – Dr. Gunjan Chaturvedi, HOD English, BDKM, Agra

Robin Lindley’s extended conversation with Dr. Nibir K. Ghosh, the author of ‘Inspiration from the Banks of the Indus River’, brings out the timelessness of the ideas that have shaped the thought-process of generations both in India and the United States of America, two of the greatest democracies of the world. Acknowledging Dr. Ghosh as a ‘reliable source for knowledge, wisdom, and inspiration’, Lindley looks for a solution to the Pandemic of Loss that is sweeping the world. The ‘consumption’ that the society is suffering from originates in the quest for more, with 'material' over-riding the 'moral'. Dr. Ghosh’s latest book provides us with an antidote to this malady. Calling Mirror from the Indus a gift to readers, Lindley suggests that a subtitle for the book could be something like 'Writing Without Borders', a very apt nomenclature. For between its pages are the all-time great minds from different cultures, who, says the interviewer, make the book so timely. From the city of love comes the language of love, uniting two individuals as starkly different as Dr. Ghosh and Robin Lindley, and the two cultures that they proudly represent. The symphony of great values and messages is enlivened by personal anecdotes which present Dr. Ghosh as the polymath that he is. Lindley rightly brings out the fact that Dr. Ghosh is a living, breathing example of national integration, what with a non-resident Bengali marrying a Punjabi, a Science student taking over the world of Literature and an illustrious career that spans the length and breadth of our country. In fact, Dr. Ghosh symbolizes International integration (Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam) - as a Fulbright Scholar, the world is his oyster. I Congratulate Robin for showcasing the multi-faceted personality of the great author. 

Now what do you say! You are in the news! And the all-comprehensive interview deserves more. Although, after History News Network, I don't know what is left, for that is the pinnacle! Congratulations again, Sir for your erudite leadership to the world of knowledge! Mirror from the Indus should be a prescribed book in educational institutions. It will help stem the tide of hopelessness that has come to stay because of the moral depravity aided by the pandemic. -- Seema Sinha, Research Scholar, BITS Pilani, Rajasthan

Dear Prof. Nibir K. Ghosh: Greetings! Going through your incisive conversation with Prof. Robin Lindley was a source of great pleasure and a very enriching experience. Thanks for sharing the same with me. Your responses and views are a testimony to your great scholarship, critical thinking, love for humanity and a deep rooted syncretic philosophy. Your concluding advise to pay heed to the "voices of philosophers" is especially valuable in these difficult times. The discussion on your recently published book Mirror from the Indus has ignited my curiosity and interest and, am sure, is a precious contribution to the body of  critical research in the field. Heartiest congratulations on this latest achievement! --  Dr. Charu Mathur, University of Rajasthan, Jaipur 

Congratulations, sir for this latest feather in your long list of accomplishments. Wishing you more power and success ahead! Truly admire your comment: ‘one must conquer temptation and fear...’ 👍 Dr. Bindu Sharma, Jagraon, Ludhiana

Dear Sir, ...so high...and yet so grounded. Just finished reading all of it...the first impression is of ...the voice of integrity and a positive outlook...I guess it's the language - easy to understand, fluid thought, and reflects deep understanding of vast topics... For me it's quite an insight and a revelation...on Kipling, catch-22, Charles Johnson, American and Indian similarity - discrimination, democracy and the rulers... ...on Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther...COVID pandemic and its lesson...W H Auden...and of course the importance of the interdisciplinary approach...something included in the NEP too... ..and of course faith in the route of education and work skills for an upward mobility for the less unfortunate... Great way to start the day... Ms. Anjali Singh, Ph.D. Scholar, Dr. B.R. Ambedkar University, Agra.

Thanks for sharing Sir. This looks so amazing. Will be so helpful for people like me who are budding and naive researchers. Thanks for leading and sharing the valuable legacy of your rich thoughts with me. – Ms. Mamta Bansal, YMCA, Faridabad

You have done Agra and India proud. Congratulations. -- Dr. Promila Chawla, B.D. Jain, Agra

Very Remarkable Interview. Hats off to your Intellect. 💐💐Congratulations! -- Mr. Anil Sharma, Poet, Agra. 

 

**The Conversation Reprinted in Creation and Criticism ISSN: 2455-9687   (A Quarterly International Peer-reviewed Refereed e-Journal Devoted to English Language and Literature) Vol. 05, Joint Issue 18 & 19 : July-Oct 2020

www.creationandcriticism.com






 





Friday, 18 September 2020

‘Slaying the Dragons of Convention’: A Conversation with Stanley Crouch - Nibir K. Ghosh

 

As the dolorous news of the passing away of one of the giant figures of the African American canon reached me, I recalled the vibrant conversation I had with Stanley Crouch during my Senior Fulbright tenure at the University of Washington, Seattle in 2004. I am sharing with friends of Stanley Crouch and of Re-Markings the entire Interview as humble tribute to a dear friend who taught us all the ways of conquering fear to keep our dignity as a human being intact.

                  ‘Slaying the Dragons of Convention’: A Conversation with Stanley Crouch

            Nibir K. Ghosh

 The words of a dead man

                                                       Are modified in the guts of the living.                             

                                                                   – W. H. Auden

One of America's most provocative and iconoclastic social critics, Stanley Crouch was born in Los Angeles, California on December 14, 1945. Encouraged by his mother, Crouch began writing at the age of eight. He attended East Los Angeles and Southwest junior colleges but has no degrees. From 1965 to 1967, he worked as an actor and a playwright under the direction of Jayne Cortez in both Studio Watts and the Watts Repertory Theatre Company. From 1968 to 1975, he taught at the Claremont Colleges, first as poet-in-residence at Pitzer, then as the first full-time faculty member of the Black Studies Center, and finally in a joint appointment to the BSC and the English Department of Pomona College. While in Claremont, Crouch wrote and directed ten plays. In the fall of 1975, Crouch moved to New York City and was soon writing for The Village Voice and The SoHo Weekly News. His writing has also appeared in Harper's, The New York Times, Vogue, Downbeat, The Amsterdam News, The New Republic, The Partisan Review, The Reading Room, and The New Yorker. He has served as Artistic Consultant for jazz programming at Lincoln Center since 1987 and is a founder of the jazz department known as Jazz at Lincoln Center. In 1996, making history, Jazz at Lincoln Center became a full constituent, the first time a major art center has given the music permanent status equal to the symphony orchestra, the ballet, the opera.

His collection of essays and reviews, Notes of a Hanging Judge, was nominated for an award in criticism by the National Book Critics Circle and was selected by the Encyclopedia Britannica Yearbook as the best book of essays published in 1990. Crouch has since appeared on a number of talk shows--Nightline, Night Watch, The Tony Brown Show, Oprah Winfrey, Charlie Rose, and others. He is the recipient of the Whiting Writers' Award, the Jean Stein Award, and a MacArthur Foundation grant. His collection of essays, The All-American Skin Game, was  nominated in 1996 for an award in criticism by The National Book Critics Circle. In the spring of 1996, he appeared as a commentator on 60 Minutes. The summer of that same year, he guest-hosted the Charlie Rose Show. Always In Pursuit, a book of essays, was published in 1998. His first novel, Don't The Moon Look Lonesome, appeared in 2000. In 2003, with Playthell Benjamin, he wrote Reconsidering the Souls of Black Folk.  A new book of essays on identity, The Artificial White Man, appeared in the fall of 2004. He has just finished his second novel, Dead Man Blues for Saber Tooth. A third novel, Two Head On A Pillow, is near completion. In addition to writing an editorial column twice a week for the New York Daily News, Crouch is currently writing the scripts for an eight-hour television miniseries.  He is also busy completing Kansas City Lightning, a biography of Charlie Parker which he has long been researching.

Stanley Crouch enjoys delighting and enraging his readers with his two-fisted observations on every controversial aspect of American polity, society and culture be it the excesses of black nationalism, feminism, the gay rights movement, or American social policy. Stanley Crouch has been hailed by The New Yorker as "one of America's most outspoken and controversial critics... an independent thinker, unconstrained by affiliation with any camp, creed, or organization.” The online literary magazine salon.com calls him "the bull in the black intelligentsia china shop.” He is undoubtedly one of the most important commentators on African American culture and its relationship with mainstream American society. An ardent proponent of the integrationist view of American life, Crouch is quick to oppose any definition of African American culture that segregates it from the mainstream. In his view even “affirmative action” is problematic because it re-segregates African Americans by giving them preferential treatment.


Ghosh: What makes you so fond of "slaying the dragons of convention"?

Crouch: It’s not a matter of finding myself “fond;” it’s about trying to clear the way so that we can see what we are talking about beyond the cliches that almost always mask the forms of life.

Ghosh:  How do you react to unkind reviews of your work?

Crouch: Usually with laughter. Sometimes I sense a competition with me, or with what the reviewer seems to believe is undue attention of the sort that leaves him or her roaring down there in the hole of the unacknowledged. One professor from the Midwest even admitted that to me after we had downed a few rounds. He agreed with me on almost everything, then explained that he had taken his position in his review because he thought it might bring him some attention.  But when true ideas that make me contemplate what I have said are laid down, I feel grateful because, as Emerson said somewhere, a serious man has to be willing to change his mind. I guess that’s the difference between such a man and an ideologue. I aim to be the serious man, not the ideologue. But then...one never knows.

Ghosh: For almost a century now, every black intellectual or writer seems to be preoccupied with the idea of  crisis of leadership in the African American community, be it  W.E.B. DuBois, Harold Cruse or Cornell West. What is your view? After Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X there is obviously a vacuum with no one to provide leadership to the masses desperately in need of new directions. Do you, in the 21st century, visualize the possibility of the emergence of anyone who would selflessly bear the burden of such leadership?

Crouch: The greatest crisis that has ever faced the black community is the present disengagement from the world of education that we see embraced by more and more of the lower class, the under class, and even the middle class. The defining of discipline, study, eloquence, punctuality, and taste as “white” or “inauthentic” goes beyond anything that has ever endangered the lives of black Americans. As Mayor Bloomberg of New York has observed, in our knowledge-based economy, such people are locking themselves into permanent second class citizenship. Most of this self-destructive idea about authenticity can be traced to the constant bombardment of black youth with images of supposed authenticity that arise from the criminal world in which money, however one acquires it, is all; women are no more than bitches and hos; grotesquely oversized jewelry is proof of how well one is doing; and hedonism in expensive surroundings is the order of the day. This began in the late sixties when Fanon’s fellah, from fellaheen, was turned into “the street brother” by the black American middle class, which finally had its biker, its rebel who had no respect for “white” middle class values. This street brother has had a number of manifestations--the Black Panther, the street hustler, the rastafarian, and, with Tupac Shakur, the pure thug. In this poisonous iconography, there is no room for a Frederick Douglass, a Bessie Coleman, a Thurgood Marshall, the Tuskegee Airmen, Marion Anderson, Leontyne Price, Ben Carson, Wynton Marlis or any of the black people, male and female, who have risen from somewhere down below. Their efforts to master a craft have brought them inarguable distinction. They are not just models of behavior but models of possibility. The sky is the limit. Consequently, the opposite view, this redefinition of black authenticity all the way downward, is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen embraced by black people, or excused because of the money it makes for a handful of polluters. In short, the crudest and most irresponsible vision of materialism fused to a very naive sense of how far one can go in the world of the illiterate and skilless. Dangerous combination. Dangerous combination.

Ghosh: Amiri Baraka had to part with his Poet Laureateship for his post- 9/11 poetic utterance. How do you look at such injustice in the land of  "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

Crouch: What injustice? That’s too simple a reading. It implies that some undeserving black man has been silenced by the white folks. That’s garbage. First thing, I believe that anything LeRoi Jones wrote and whatever controversy it caused should not have led to his dismissal as the Poet Laureate of New Jersey. He should have remained as proof of how stupid those who chose him were. Jones is and has been an irresponsible propagandist who has written very, very little of aesthetic value for nearly forty years. He was a major talent when he was downtown in New York’s East Village, married to a Jewish woman, and the father of their two kids. Then he wrote with style and originality, sometimes a bit obscurely but always with the depth and fire of someone who was moving to join the immortals. When he left his wife and declared his “blackness,” his work fell apart and was transformed into nothing more than diatribes and death threats which we were supposed to think of as revolutionary.  How were those who chose him to be Poet Laureate not aware of this?

Ghosh: But people do see him as an icon of black power aesthetics.

Crouch: His work, either as a black nationalist and anti-Semite or as a Stalinist, is an insult to the very idea of artistry. It is sloppy, crude in execution and thought. If he belonged to any group other than third-rate propagandists, he would be an embarrassment. But since he belongs in the ranks of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, we can understand him as one of those given to big lies and brutal ideas about the handling of the opposition. Jones is basically a pathetic and cowardly little man who could have been major but decided to become minor after he wrote The System of Dante’s Hell  and has remained so ever since. Had he ever been in possession of serious political power--if we are to believe his writing--he would have murdered white people, Jews especially, police officers, Negroes he considered recalcitrant, corporate executives, the entire House of Representatives and Senate, and all who were, as Mao called them, “the running dogs of capitalism.” He’s a totalitarian demagogue, make no mistake about it. But in the interest of how silly people can be in high places, he should have remained the Poet Laureate so that people would have had to question how, exactly, did he get the position? What were his qualifications? Which examples of his work did the committee find so superior to all other poets in New Jersey that they chose him instead of one of them? How much did his very appointment have to do with racial politics as opposed to art (which, by the way, can definitely be political and still maintain the complex mysteries of our humanity). All of those questions might have been answered if he had been allowed to remain in place, and we might all be the better for what would have been exposed.

Ghosh: How do you respond to the increasingly hostile relationship between Jews and the African Americans in America ?

Crouch: The irrationality that comes of identifying with the Third World as if it has anything to do with black America--automatically. While not dismissing the long tradition of high-minded Christians, it seems to me that, in the modern era,  Jews have proven themselves, over and over and over, to consistently be the best white friends that Negro Americans have. They contributed the most dollars to the Civil Rights Movement. Their children outnumbered those of any other white people among the Civil Rights workers. They have long been raising the kinds of relativity arguments that underlay black studies and all of the other nouveau academic disciplines. On the other hand, there are still slaves being sold in Africa by Arabs, many of whom look upon black people as inferior. One need only look at the abolition movement documented on iabolish.com to see what is going on and to understand through interviews what the Arab attitudes toward black people have been and far too frequently are right now. Of course, we are not talking about genetic determination, we are talking about cultural attitudes that can be seen, as Playthell Benjamin pointed out to me, in the first story in the famous 1001 Nights. All of the bestial descriptions of black men and all of the sexual paranoia are right there. If Sir Richard Burton’s  translation is accurate--and we have no reason at this point to think that it is not--then we might have the first moment in which the classic racists attitudes toward black people emerged with all fear focused on sex and the slaves to black tools women could become. Ooo wee. Ooo wee. Or should I say, “Ooo, wee wee”? For that reason, Africans are often shocked to see people like Louis Farrakan acting as though they have some deep kinship with the Arabs. Education, of course, will change everything for the better among all people, but it is important to realize where you are and how things actually work.

Ghosh: Would you then endorse the Israeli standpoint?

Crouch: One can be critical of Israel, even harshly so, but that does not mean that the irrational and murderous tactics of Hamas and Islamic Jahid should be embraced. Personally, I believe if King’s non-violent tactics had been used by the Palestinians, they would have had a homeland long ago, primarily because the Jewish sense of moral order could not have withstood the images of more and more non-violent men, women, and children being dragged off to flood the jails, then the camps that would have come when the jails could take no more. Would the Palistinians have been satisfied with what they got? Who knows? But they would have had a sovereign state and sovereign states do not risk wars in order to allow terrorists freedom of movement. They crush any whose irrational acts could lead to war.

Ghosh: In what light do you see the recent controversy created by the Essie Mae Washington-Williams declaration ?

Crouch: Not much, except that she waited until the checks stopped coming in from Strom Thurmond before she was overwhelmed by the need for “closure” and just had to announce that she was his half-white daughter.

Ghosh: What are your earliest recollections of your creativity?

Crouch: I could draw well when I was a kid, I tried to write my own music after a few piano lessons, and I fell in love with writing very early on because it could hold experience in place.

Ghosh: Who do you consider your literary mentors?

Crouch: Ralph Ellison, Albert Murray, and Saul Bellow. But I must also say Leon Forrest because, as far as I’m concerned, he eventually out-Ellisoned Ellison when he crossed the bridge into Divine Days, which is too long but is a great accomplishment even so. Where Forrest truly went beyond those two writers and almost all contemporary American writers, black or white, was in his rendering of romance between men and women. He understood the sensual but he also came to recognize all of the other aspects of a couple, from joking to fighting, something we don’t really have much of in American fiction, which almost always focuses whatever attention it gives on young love, nostalgia, and the disappointments of old age. Mature love doesn’t get much attention, but then maturity doesn’t get much attention either. That’s why the opportunities open to the writer of  American fiction are  so exciting. There is still so much frontier work to do. Melville towers over the other American writers of the nineteenth century but we learn next to nothing about men and women from him, which I consider a great flaw. I am only now moving in on Henry James whom I hated as a young man because he seemed all atmosphere to me then, which was absolutely wrong.

Fitzgerald is a giant but one of his most remarkable accomplishments has never been mentioned or understood, as far as I know. His Great Gatsby is a marvelous example of the use of the blues and a very instructive example of how to make use of popular materials. In his case, the lyrics of “Beale Street Blues” contain almost all  of the themes of the novel. That is why, in chapter eight, he mentions the song. He, in fact, is the first American writer to really make use of blues as a foundation for motific development. He writes, “All night the saxophones wailed the hopeless comment of “The Beale Street Blues” while a hundred pairs of golden and silver slippers shuffled the shining dust." That actually constitutes what I call a compound allusion by referring to James Bland’s “Oh, Dem Golden Slippers,” and Yeats’s “Song of the Wandering Aengus,” which contains the spirit of Gatsby, what will destroy him:

           I will find out where she has gone,

And kiss her lips and take her hands.

And pluck till time and times are done

The silver apples of the moon,

The golden apples of the sun.

Faulkner is to American fiction of the  twentieth century what Melville was to his, the greatest innovator and the most impressive adventurer. Hemingway taught everyone the poetic resources of prose fiction, which is why he is so important. In that respect, I don’t know that anyone has gone beyond “The Snows of Kilimanjaro,” which is superior to all of his novels, if you ask me. It’s not a short story; it’s a miracle, perhaps the greatest long poem written by an American. It is fiction and poetry so perfectly aligned that one knows by the end that he or she has been in the hands of genius.

Ghosh: What attracted you to the works of Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray?

Crouch: The freedom from cliches that I saw in their writing and the range of what they thought about the world.

Ghosh: How is it that most African American writers evade mentioning the influence of Richard Wright on their works? Are the reasons political?

Crouch: I have no idea. Wright was very important. His entire Black Boy or American Hunger as he wanted it titled, is a major American autobiography in the tradition of Frederick Douglass. In fact, I know that Ralph Ellison read the entire book in manuscript, not the truncated version that the publishers released. I know this because the old master told me so. Ellison surely had that book in mind as the foundation upon which he built Invisible Man. So many of Wright’s themes and experiences are lifted into a very original world of fiction by Ellison that the reading of them together is quite an experience. I do not think that Wright had the same level of eloquence we experience when reading Ellison, but he surely had equal fire and a very deep understanding of the fear that so many Negroes trembled inside of but could not easily escape, as though that fear was close to what Faulkner called “an iron cold” in The Wild Palms.

I don’t know that anyone has ever done a better job of expressing the nuances of fear and the feeling of being hated in a world that consistently denies the depth and power of your wounds. In a certain way, he anticipates the writing that came of experiencing the Nazi death camps on the one hand, while reaching back to the gruesome clarity of Isaac Babel. That is a very hard area to inhabit because deep suffering can so easily slide into sentimentality or overstatement. But Wright had precision when it came to describing the physical pain that defined an ugly social truth. Whether you like the overall effect of a given work, when his characters are struck or tortured, he makes you feel it as part of universal information about pain that we so often attempt to avoid for fear of losing the morale of confidence in civilization. Wright makes it clear that civilization is never complete as long as it accepts the disgusting treatment of a certain group for irrational reasons. The sheer brutality of racism that Wright expresses with so much observation and so much fire and sorrow is a major contribution. Ellison might have edged him in eloquence but he knew who Richard Wright was. That is why the descriptions of physical pain in Invisible Man are so vivid. Both James Baldwin and Toni Morrison were fundamentally influenced by Wright’s feeling as opposed to his style. Baldwin invented a new version of English by bringing together the sound of  Henry James with the rhythms of black church rhetoric and song as well as the rhythmic reaches of blues and jazz. It was a major victory. Even though he decayed into a propagandist, his contribution when he was on his own special beat can never be condescended to or sneered at.

Ghosh: In what light do you, as journalist, novelist and critic, see the relationship between art and politics?

Crouch: In journalism, you are supposedly talking about objective facts, which means that your politics will arrive on the basis of what you make of the situation or the event. Complete freedom is the point of the novel, so you can write about anything in any way. Lawrence Sterne, Herman Melville, and James Joyce shouted that out at the top of their literary lungs. I agree with them. Criticism is about presenting and assessing the order of a work to an audience in clear terms. Then your job is done. I prefer criticism that addresses the writerly qualities of an author because so much of it is, otherwise, some eloquent or ineloquent blather. My intention is to tell the reader HOW something is done and WHAT I make of it. In other words, I would rather keep the barn door closed so that the farm animals can be closely examined before opening that very door and letting them run wild.

Ghosh: Do you also subscribe to the idea that Black art should be confined only to the experiences of  the Black community ? What do you think of a novel like To Kill a Mocking Bird written by a white writer who is also a woman?

Crouch: Such a question has nothing to do with art and doesn’t deserve an answer. But in our muddled time, one needs to take on the question. All segregation needs to be broken down, especially in the world of literature, which is so, so far behind what is happening in the best of our television and film dramas, where people across racial lines are being better depicted, given more striking human characteristics. Most writers today don’t have the nerve to write what they know about people outside of their ethnic groups. But something is rising up out there from people like Joyce Carol Oates, who is the boldest and most adventurous of the established writers. She has yet to take on the challenge of imagining a brilliant black man or woman from the inside but, have no fear, she will. That level of human interest is what makes her a heroine of the craft and of our moment.  After all, Faulkner threw down the gauntlet more than sixty years ago with Go Down, Moses, which made it clear that the task of the American writer was to make sense of how black, white, Indian, and Asian worked with and against each other to create this country. That is still the ultimate accomplishment.

Ghosh: Was your adverse reaction to Toni Morrison and her work motivated by any gender bias?

Crouch: I don’t have anything at all against Toni Morrison the person and actually respect what she did and tried to do when she was an editor at Random House. Publishing Leon Forrest is her greatest contribution to literature. Her talent is big but her mind seems rather small to me. Or her mind is narrowed by ideology. I still think her best book was her first, The Bluest Eye. Perhaps the question should actually be: has her work been so well received and so celebrated because of favoritism toward her sex? In short, could it be that people just want a black woman to be up there with Faulkner and the rest and will stop at nothing until they get one?

Ghosh: Who are your favorite contemporary African American women writers?

Crouch: I like Andrea Lee, Danzy Senna and Dana Johnson, not one of whom seems to have been taken in by any limited ideas about black people. Beyond them, I don’t have any because they don’t seem to be interested in the hundreds of thousands of black women who live complex lives and who think complex thoughts, all the while laying down as much soul as Aretha Franklin. Other than Lee, Senna and Johnson, I know of no one who seems to think that the human territory of the American novel could be expanded if someone were to take on the idea of sophisticated three-dimensional black women who arrive on the page as something more than deracinated salt pork in the greens of cliched attitudes about sophisticated black people. For instance, the idea that, in the process of becoming sophisticated, black lose some of their “authenticity.” There are so, so many contrary examples but so few characters make my  case  with the power of art.

Ghosh: What is your opinion of the emerging Hip Hop culture?

Crouch: I don’t have any opinions about so called “hip hop culture” because it seems to me that a culture is much, much more than perhaps fifty slang words or usages, a few dance steps, some strange hairdos, bad taste in clothes, horrible choices of absurdly oversized jewelry, and a fairly confused set of naive ideas about something as complex as African heritage.

Ghosh: To what causes do you attribute the widening gulf within the African American community on economic lines?

Crouch: Mostly the lack of intellectual engagement on the part of those down below. If they do not understand how important it is to develop skills--serious abilities in everything from the high sciences to the trades--they are doomed. I don’t ignore the fluctuations of the market or the remaking of the work place that is being wrought by technology, but I do think that unless you are intellectually armed, you will become one of the hill of casualties destined to rot in terms of your lack of a career, no matter how long you live.

Ghosh: Do you personally believe that literary prizes are often motivated by extra-literary politics?

Crouch: Who knows? Not always, even if they sometimes are. It always depends on who’s doing the judging. When I figured out that Thomas Mann wrote The Beloved Returns in order to examine what might have been in the German personality that made it so vulnerable to totalitarianism, it remade my sense of the extra-literary. Then it seemed to me that all of Joseph and His Brothers was, essentially, a protest against anti-Semitism ordered through an astounding orchestration of historical fact and the legend of Joseph. Through Mann  I realized the artist can make a very complex set of statements about life and all of its meanings while consciously stepping on the bugs of bigotry that cover the floor as they rise from down below. To have written that book while the Nazis were choking themselves on the intellectual and spiritual carrion of xenophobia was no less than a marshalling of the forces of the novel not so much for good as for the cleansing of the human palate or pumping the stomach. The artist cannot always tell you what is good to eat, but he or she should have a good idea of what constitutes poison. By concentrating on the foundation of dreams and the meaning of forgiveness, which is one of the highest aspects of civilization, Mann made a hero of himself through the expression of a very deep integrity. Of course, when one thinks of the horrific images of Negroes in Mann’s work, it is easy to see how far from the Joyce of “The Dead” he was. His vision of human life and human value seemed to have stopped at the surface of skin. But part of the maturity that is demanded of Negroes who would be free of simple-minded is that the fact that he who makes a great contribution might have no place for you in his vision of society, but that does not diminish the dimensions of the gift. The example I always give is that no amount of information about William Shockley’s racist attitudes toward black people is going to make fewer Negroes use transistors, the invention of which with two other men led to Shockley receiving the Nobel Prize. That’s how it is.

Ghosh: Your Don’t the Moon Look Lonesome is an attempt to move beyond narrow racial ideologies. Charles Johnson calls it "a novel that we need as we enter the 21st century, a stern and rich and correcting vision that will help us, one and all, to create a more humane America." To what extent have you been influenced by his concept of the philosophical novel that tends to move beyond narrow complaint to broad celebration?

Crouch: For all of my enormous respect for Charles Johnson’s gifts, he has never been an influence on me. Those who have influenced me are Ellison, Melville, Mann, Balzac, Flaubert, Joyce, Hemingway, Faulkner, Bellow, Leon Forrest, and, to some extent, James Baldwin. For formal adventure and thematic variation, Don’t the Moon Look Lonesome grows out of the omni-directional styles of Moby Dick, but also calls upon so many other things to get it wherever it goes. The Iliad and the Odyssey were basic thematic chords, as was Auden’s “The Shield of Achilles,” and Shakespeare’s Henry V. The main character, Carla, is a 38 year old jazz singer from South Dakota when we meet her. Blonde and big in the butt, she  is both Odysseus and Penelope, the wanderer and the defender of the home. As we learn who she is and where she has been and what she is facing, certain phrases are returned to, over and over, in variation, given new contexts and meanings while pulling along the previous references. The two words “let go” are examples, which mean one thing in the church, another when Carla is riding in a limousine with her wealthy Irish boyfriend, and yet another when Kelvin Thomson, the drunken writer, is threatened by a black thug in the  “Johnny Too Bad” chapter. “Johnny Too Bad” takes its name from a song about knuckleheads that I heard Taj Mahal sing. Hemingway’s famous “nada,” or nothing, from “A Clean Well-lighted Place,” is often toyed with because I don’t agree with him. So nada often appears in the narrative or the speech of a character as nothing or zero, oblivion.

Ghosh:  Is music a powerful influence in your novel ?

Crouch: Many of the variations are based on fundamental American sources, from the blues to Tin Pan Alley to cartoons and the dialogue in movies. Even the great Updike complained in his New Yorker review of my naming all of the tunes that Carla sings because he didn’t take the time to realize that when a singer chooses a song, the words let you know what a singer wants to tell you. So, if you know the lyrics to the songs, which I’m sure that Updike does, you can tell just by the title on the page what emotional states are being expressed. That should be especially obvious in the songs Carla sings at the beginning of the second half of the book. Or one can do something else altogether, as I chose to when Carla was on the bandstand and Maxwell was out in the audience listening to her. On the high bandstand, which is like a low baloney, she is actually serenading him. At that point in the book, I use the lyrics in extensions and compressions  to create a passage in which what the singer feels about her life with her man is communicated through the variations on the words of the songs. Right there the question of time as it functions in jazz is looked at through improvisations on the lyrics of “How Long Has This Been Going On?”  The overriding goal is what Albert Murray observed in Stomping the Blues, which is that jazz musicians approached those songs as though they were folk materials that were in need of being lifted into the world of art by the realigning of the melodies, the harmonies, and the rhythms. Then there is the blues. A good number of the novel’s extended monologues, like the nature of the blues itself, take the reader to a place almost the opposite, or the exact opposite, of where the previous words seemed to lead. In blues, this usually arrives in the last stanza. The deepest feeling of the irate Jewish woman shouting into the public phone at the end of the chapter called “My Kind of Town.” is not revealed until the very end of her monologue.

Ghosh: Is your novel directed at a black audience ?

Crouch: No. I was interested in suggesting, to the best of my ability, the intellectual and cultural width and depth of black America, from the folk arena of poetic intellect all the way up to the world in which plenty of books have been read by Negroes who remember them and make something of their own from them. This is what Carla encounters in her travels and her adventures as she seeks a home for her talent and comes to live in terms of the men she meets and fall for, in Chicago and New York. Throughout the book, all kinds of different black people from across the classes talk about what’s on their minds and what they feel and what they want. It’s a big, big cast, but the world into which Carla finds herself is not small and is not held down by stereotypes. This is equally true of the kinds of white people she meets. That is the point: you got to get next to it to truly know what it is.

Ghosh: Does your novel shed light on man-woman relationships?

Crouch: Yes, above all else--if there is an “above all else” in an epic--I wanted to get at an intimacy between a man and a woman that is largely foreign to American novels, no matter where the author comes from and no matter what he or she happens to be in ethnic or religious terms. As Carla matures, she has many different kinds of relationships with men, all of them pointing her toward Maxwell, the man she has to fight for against those black people who would break them up on ideological grounds. One example of that intimacy is the range of feeling, from sex itself, to embarrassingly coy and private sex talk, to the romantic afterglow. There are also some fresh things about the meaning of love and how it influences the use of male power, which Cecelia articulates in the novel. Cecelia’s thought then moves on to affect a dream of Carla’s that contains a joke about fellatio which is also a send up of irrational feminist theory. That is an example of how people’s lives, as I understand them, are so interconnected, or the conclusions that they come to are the result of such interconnected experience in the perspective of the individual, that we never quite know when a thought or a feeling arrives, where it will go or what it will connect to in the sensibility of the character. I guess what we have is a discursive sense of experience and thought that is held in place by the themes, the motives, the rhythms, and so on.     

Ghosh: Would you place Don’t the Moon Look Lonesome in the category of novels reflecting contemporary realism ? Or would you like to see it as a novel taking the reader into the fictional zone of romantic idealism and perhaps euphorically beyond the color line?

Crouch: Well, I actually don’t see the novel as a realistic novel; it is actually very avant garde, if you ask me, but not in a way that often points at itself. Even so, James Alan McPherson sees in my use of “riffs” as he calls my motifs, a new narrative technique. So go argue with him. There are other things, too. So many forms are used and so many different styles of the language leap frog over one another that I could never, even if someone else had written it, be so far removed from the demands of understanding theme, variation, and recapitulation as to describe this  novel as no more than a reflection of contemporary realism. What it attempts to do is give us an epic vision of our nation and an epic vision of ethnicity. The love story is built upon the beginnings of Western literature, the Iliad and the Odyssey. It makes its way by using the tensions of racial conflict and the antidote of racial harmony, which can only arrive in a world of individuals. That is my central interest, that cultures never produce anything other than individuals.

Ghosh: How did you find the journey from journalism to fiction writing ?

Crouch: Short.

Ghosh: F. Scott Fitzgerald immortalized the Jazz Age with his magnum opus The Great Gatsby. However, it was a portrayal that highlighted the negative aspects of the jazz era. Your statement : "One of the central intellectual shortcomings of American life is the fact that so little has been done with the flexible profundity of jazz metaphor" seems to lament the marginal importance assigned to the aesthetic value of jazz .  As popular spokesperson for jazz, what is your agenda for giving the musical form its rightful due?

Crouch: That has yet to arrive because of the sophistication of the art form and because of the rise of rock and of rap, neither of which demands much musical sophistication nor asks that of the listener. Most of jazz is based on the thrills of very sophisticated  group improvisation. The fact of improvisation, of playing, creates an obstacle because it is  no simple thing. It is also not something that is impossible to appreciate either. Once upon a time in America, people knew that there was such a thing as playing, as bringing form to the present, swinging and playing with a good, personal sound. We are now surrounded by versions of the special effect, which can be good for film when it does not overpower the human quality. In jazz, we get another kind of special effect. Louis Armstrong introduced us to that. The human imagination in the moment, the ability of the player to bring melodic, rhythmic, harmonic, and timbral form to the moment within a mobile context of fellow improvisors--THAT’S the special effect. It is also the expression of adult emotion, jazz is. Popular music dominates the sound space and it is, primarily, the vessel of adolescent feeling, of sentimental obsessions, of trite ideas about rebelling against one’s parents, teachers, and so on. It’s all about frustration or fun that comes at no cost greater than zipping down your pants or dropping our drawers. Because such things come at no cost, or should come at no cost, the vision remains adolescent. In our youth we suffer from the illusion that good arrives from nowhere and it’s just that adults stand in the way. I don’t think that the young should be deprived of their illusions, but I also don’t think that they should be allowed to define the passion of an era. They don’t know enough about all of what goes into life--child rearing, jobs, battling with one’s ambitions and one’s limitations and all of what makes life both uplifting and seemingly unbearable. The impact has not been good. This pop feeling of life has worn down the world and reasserted in film, the power and the shortcomings of slapstick in which one waits for explosive exclamation points that drive the narrative, or make up for the lack of one. This is why special effects are so important in contemporary film, which far more often than not reduces the human being to a cartoon version of good or evil. All of these things make it difficult for jazz to rise into an appreciated audible position. But it will rise. It is an art. Arts do that. They rise.

Ghosh: What inspired you to write a biography of Charlie Parker?

Crouch: His life contained all of the troubles of enormous individuality working for and against a convention. His imagination was innovative. He was a drug addict and, therefore, foreshadowed the coming of the big position drugs would have in American life. His intelligence was monumental but he was not a well educated man, yet he created an extremely sophisticated style on every level--melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic. His abilities did move jazz forward; they only helped create another way of expressing oneself. He was not more “advanced” than the players who came before him, but Parker was a colossus and he shook his world inside of those little clubs and those invisible jam sessions that existed largely below the aesthetic sight lines of America. In a sense, his music and the whole “bebop revolution” took the art into what would become, by the sixties, the kind of cult situation that arrives with an avant garde that has no large academic following. We cannot imagine Picasso and the others having made it through purely on the basis of people looking at their work. There were big battles and big arguments. Entire schools of aesthetic evaluation had to emerge in order for Picasso and those who formed his movement away from traditional versions of individuality to rise. Jazz has never had that. There have never been artists and thinkers on the level of Apollinaire who have come forward to champion it, who have grasped its unique qualities and have valued them. For every Ralph Ellison and Gunther Schuller you have, literally, dozens upon dozens of writers who have no understanding of aesthetics at all. It was far worse during the forties except that jazz musicians had a much, much higher quality of popular music upon which to base their variations, which does not exist for a jazz musician today. So Parker, with his heroin habit, his saxophone, his great intellect, the racism of his moment, and his very limited options was largely a man alone, no matter how celebrated he was in his circle. He did the best that he could, struggling with his habit, his saxophone, himself, and the world in which he found himself. The battle had heroic and tragic proportions and that blistering magic that the great improvisor always symbolizes. So who could avoid it? I am 400 pages in and have been working off and on over 20 years on this project. I am closing in now. It should come out in the next three years. Let us hope that neither the effort nor the wait has been in vain. 

Ghosh: What made you give up your preoccupations as a playwright?

Crouch: I didn’t have the wherewithal to struggle inside of that world, too. I had chosen my arenas. But I have written the libretto for Wynton Marsalis’s “The Fiddler’s Tale,” which is available on record. I am also writing the libretto for an opera he and I are doing. Screenplays are in the works. I remain busy. You never know, I may return to the stage someday.

Ghosh: In Notes of a Hanging Judge you have taken special initiative to demolish reputations of several contemporary African American icons which many  thought of as an ungenerous act towards the community. Your comments, please.

Crouch: I don’t consider that a serious question. My intention was not to “demolish” anyone’s reputation. The book was not dominated by that supposed “special initiative.” I had standards that were made very clear in every case. In Notes of a Hanging Judge, there were celebrations of people like the Senegalese filmmaker Ousman Sembene, for example; there were extended celebrations of the painter Bob Thompson, and the writers Charles Johnson and Albert Murray, who were then largely unknown. There were also essays about the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee and its destruction by black nationalism, Louis Farrakan, Maynard Jackson’s Atlanta, Georgia and the extensions of the era of Reconstruction, and so on. Beyond that, my task was to get the birdshit off of the windshield and it didn’t matter to me the color of the birds whose droppings were limiting our view. I defined my generation as one as “lost” and misled by black nationalism, which lead to the politics of self-pity and what became known as “identity politics.” I wasn’t with that, and I’m still not.

Ghosh: As a journalist, how do you rate Spike Lee movies like Malcolm X and Bamboozled ? What led you to refer to Spike Lee as "a nappy-headed Napoleon"?

Crouch: I have had a number of things to say about Spike Lee whom I initially did not like because his ideas were racist and his films were crude in thought and execution. Over the years he has evolved into a filmmaker who has gone on to do battle with the very limitations that he once championed. I thought Malcolm X  was a big mess and it did not fail because it did not get any attention. Spike got more free publicity for that than just about any film until the recent The Passion of Christ. Unlike Mel Gibson, he found that there was not an audience that wanted to see it. He Got Game went nowhere because the black female audience was outraged at Denzell Washington’s character having a white girlfriend. Women even stood up and shouted at the screen across the nation. That must have been illuminating. Summer of Sam was his most ambitious film but it was not taken for what it was because the critics were not ready for Spike Lee to try and create across the racial divide. By then, he had painted himself into a corner and they were determined not to let him out. Bamboozled was a strong satire but it stopped short of attacking rap for being the most powerful minstrel update of our time. I think Spike lost his nerve at the last minute and did not go the distance he should have. That would have taken a special kind of nerve. I think he’s building up his nerve reserve right now, wherever he is. His development has never been less than frustrating, enraging, or interesting. He’s not a real intellectual so he has to feel his way along. Life has to teach him, which it is. He wanted to be some sort of a race leader at the beginning of his career, which is why he once wrote of seeing himself as a “black nationalist with a camera.”  But has had to settle for being a guy who’s learned that the human dimensions of the world will not stop being what they are in order to fit your politics. That has been a hard lesson for him because he is, essentially, a naive man, an innocent. That is his tragedy; his triumph is that he now understands that he is not a race leader and that the villains come in all colors, classes, religions, and political systems. That’s a major victory and may someday result in major art.

Ghosh: You say that "the challenge staring down at any writer who uses color conflict in our American context is how close he or she can get to the standards set by writers such as Homer and Shakespeare, two champions who were never unwilling to narrate a fight, blow by blow, nuance by nuance." Both Homer and Shakespeare were perhaps aware of the fact that what "pleases many and pleases long are the just representations of general nature." Do you think it is easy for a writer of color to overcome  the pressure of double consciousness to appropriate the standards set by the models you refer to ?

Crouch: Color is never the problem, comprehensive recognition of humanity is. If some untranslated Third World man or woman has given us more to build on than Homer and Shakespeare, trot them out here and get to work. The point of inspiration is irrelevant. We who use the English language cannot get past Will because he was the greatest master of it and used his craft, as Harold Bloom says, to “invent” the human, to give us an epic understanding of the human heart and mind. Leon Forrest, the first giant in the wake of Ralph Ellison, whose Divine Days went beyond Ellison, already laid it down. Charles Johnson keeps hitting the pitches of his moment over the fence and into the parking lot. Danzy Senna must have shocked the pants off of dullards and lazy types when she wrote Caucasia to give us a brand new version of the once tragic mulatto and introduce us to a wide, wide range of American life as it is lived right now, across the lines of class and color. Watch out. Now the mighty Edward P. Jones is out there lining them up. This is happening all over the world because the world itself demands it of those who wish to treat it with the respect of imagination and accuracy.

Ghosh What about African writers?

Crouch: African writers are having to confront the dragons inside of themselves and their societies and traditions. They have to deal with their backward ideas about women, the corruption of their military dictatorships, and the father of all racism, which is, doubtless, tribalism. I am looking forward to reading Nuruddin Farah’s new novel, Links, because, from what I have read, he is looking the African dragon in the mouth. Good for him and good for us. The writer is, finally, a servant of civilization, unless he or she is given to celebrating the demeaning, torture, imprisonment, and murder of others. We can see it projected in defense of social regimes or in the interest of destroying them, but neither manifestation is the servant of civilization as I understand it.

Ghosh: How do you see civilization in relation to xenophobia?

Crouch: Civilization is always at war with xenophobia, which can arrive in folklore, religion, politics, philosophy, phony science, and the popular arts as well as the high arts. Hitler was the last of the formidable and self-declared tribalists, the great demon of xenophobia. But men like Stalin and Pol Pol were of the same cloth. Those Africans who create their own killing fields must be looked at for what they are. Rwanda is no joke, nor are those kids running around with guns and kidnapping girls in the Congo and Uganda. These girls  are transformed into sex slaves there to entertain the men after these guys  have done their most recent killing. These are very brutal  men, no more, no less.  They are not embarrassments or proof of African inferiority. They prove that Africans are human, just as the endlessly bloody Greek myths make clear what human beings have to fight against in order to arrive at a civilized level of understanding.

Ghosh: Can liberal democracy combat xenophobia?

Crouch: The Western respect for the individual that arrives with democratic thought in the late eighteenth century, here and in Europe, is the best thing that has come down the pike so far. At its strongest, it provides alternatives to xenophobia as it arrives in its many forms. Latin Americans have known these things for a long time, even if they have flirted with the narrows of Marxism because it sounds so goddam good on paper. The Chinese who went through the Cultural Revolution know what a monster Mao was and how easily--or cleverly and dangerously--xenophobia can put on the mask of Marxist revolution, dehumanizing and murdering those it defines as opponents, on the basis of class and education. If those who study humankind are right, xenophobia begins as a way of protecting the group, of fearing the unknown because it may well contain threats unto death. Civilization, then, is narrowing the focus of fear so that one does not, for instance, hate Germans at large, one hates Nazis, who have proven what they are for all to see. In our time, of course, we also have to deal with the legacy of St. Paul, which is that a terrible man can transform himself irrevocably. This also happens or there would be no hope for humankind. We can learn. But we can also pretend to learn in order to slip the noose. Or, as Woody Allen says in Crimes and Misdemeanors, we can do terrible things, feel guilty about them for a bit, then forgive ourselves and, as they say, “Get on with our lives.” These are the complexities of our moment, and only the most serious writers will step up to them. That is why I say the writer is the servant of civilization. The hard questions must be asked, the human heart investigated. An endless job. Not one for those given to yellowing their underwear.

Ghosh: An increasing number of African Americans are turning to Buddhism. Is it just a fashion?

Crouch: Who knows? Those who are serious, are serious. Those who are following a trend, are following a trend. I respect Buddhism, or those whom I know who are Buddhists, but I am too big a fan of music to follow it all the way down the line. As far as I know, there is no great Buddhist music. I respect the human struggles that it faces, but I like to pat my foot. I’m a Western man through and through. Give me a pig foot and a bottle of beer, Louis Armstrong and Siegfried’s Idyll, Robert Johnson and James Joyce. I like it like that. Our collective fate is that we ramble around and around until the butcher called time cuts us down.

Ghosh: What in your opinion is the future of the Nation of Islam in America?

Crouch: It will go the way all cults go within the context of its time. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, bullshit to bullshit.

Ghosh: As a veteran writer and journalist, what is your advice to the younger generation?

Crouch: My advice to the younger generation is the sort that I got from the examples of Ralph Ellison, Albert Murray, and Leon Forrest: Go out there and find something that you want to talk about and see if you can achieve an original, uncontrived perspective. Don't be afraid to face the human facts about any group or persuasion or cause. Learn from the best writers that the world has to offer. Keep writing until you recognize your own sound, rhythm, and feeling showing up on the page. But always, no matter where you learn it--from the alley to the academy--do as they used to say, "Go for what you know."

***

 Published in Multicultural America: Conversations with Contemporary Authors 
by Nibir K. Ghosh. Chandigarh: Unistar Books, 2005. pp. 98-122.
 Copyright Nibir K. Ghosh 2005.
"Thanks for doing this, Nibir. I've felt numb about our losing Stanley for days now. His life is the stuff that American legends are made of. He was our H.L. Mencken and so much more, a writer of courage, who inspired so many of us to be as courageous as he was. I really miss his presence among us, especially at this dangerous, difficult moment in American history when we need his voice. I owed a lot to him since we first met in 1982 when he reviewed my second novel Oxherding Tale (which a recent writer called one of the two books that invented the modern slave novel, along with Leon Forest's work) for the Village Voice. We will never see the likes of Stanley Crouch again, and that makes American culture so much poorer now." -- Comments by Charles Johnson, US National Book Award Winner, received by email dated 18 September 2020.